Triangle Podcast → on Spirituality and Culture

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On this episode of The Tricast Experience by the Triangle Company, Rob Davidson interviews his close friend and client Judy Ryan of Lifework Systems. She is a Culture-Focused Leader and helps large and small businesses develop internal systems that increase performance, profits, and team happiness. We talk about spirituality and its impact on the next generation of business leaders, movers, and shakers.

Interview Transcript

well thank you so much Judy for being on the podcast today we’re really excited to have you kind of like I said in the email it’s super super casual I really just kind of want to talk about those kind of core driving point that we were talking about a lot the other day and kind of tying it into our personal lives why it’s important to us and then what does that look like kind of moving beyond it right so man where would be uh the best place to start so how about for the audience sake would you like to give a introduction for yourself sure well first of all my name is Judy Ryan and I am the CEO uh of Life work systems we’ve been in business we’re in our 19th year and I’ve actually been doing the work for over 30 years but full-time since 1998 and as a business owner since 2002 and the reason that it matters so much to me is that my mission is to create a world where all people love their lives and I want people to not only love their life I want them to love their life so a lot of times we’ve been put in situations where we feel like someone else is putting us in that box of who we’re supposed to be and I want people to to have hold an intention for their life that what is my path and how do I get the support I need to live that path and I think that’s part of the reason why why I’m so interested and was so attracted to work with you Rob because I believe you see people and life that way more than just a formula yeah oh my gosh uh and that that means so much to me that you see that Judy and I see the exact same thing in you uh I was just talking to one of our new interns today like he is just blown away by how much we’re building everything his entire experience to build into his path like we were we were talking about this the other day and you know he is just continuously floored by it but it’s it’s reflecting on that it’s like well it’s because the rest of the world doesn’t think that way it’s because he’s floored right it’s because everyone’s approaching it like a series of numbers and how do they make a dollar a dollar 10 versus truly investing in what got you here and those relationships in that team to actually go from a dollar dollar T so let’s let’s try make that dollar two three five dollars right but it takes that long long-term thinking and the willingness to like put your money where your mouth is it’s like if you actually care about your staff this is the answer of how to do that and make them grow into the a players you want them to be well what strikes me about what you said is putting your money where your mouth is I think a lot of organizations don’t put their mouth and their thought into what do we want to cause not only for our customers but for our employees and our vendors and our communities and and that’s that’s a set of values really in organiz izing principles to want to set a purpose or mission to want to set up a set of core values and have those instruct the way that you operate or all the visions that you create from there forward so I know I I I hope you don’t mind if I do this but I just want to kind of pull what we’re talking about right now into the conversation of divine and human because that’s I think what we wanted to work on right or talk about which I don’t typically do so I love it that you invited me to do that you know it’s uh timely right now well and I think it’s it builds into the real deal conversation of how we started this of like okay we’re going to talk about investing in those relationships what does that look like well let’s look down to just what the Human Experience is and do what do what is each human bring to the table right yes yeah and you know even to Define what is The Human Experience at its best is even a kind of controversial or multifaceted way of looking at things I remember uh the reason that I like the model we use which is based on the psychology of Alfred Adler which is actually called individual psychology is to take a deep look at what is what is it that every human being needs to kind of expand into their fullest potential and I would even say in the in the context of this conversation how do we get them to expand into the remembrance of their Divinity because when we are tapped into that we belong and that we have significance there’s I believe a way we also tap into the fact that we’re greater than the experience we have as a human only you know it’s in a larger feeling of a context and so what I love about the work that I do is it’s really focused on what are the conditions and conversations that need to be in place for people to tap into that healthy belonging significance and Divinity and how do you and this is where the real conversation feels like it’s been a Growing Experience for myself is that we can be firm and disciplined and hold high expectations about ourselves and others without being vengeful or without believing in punishing and I think that what has happened a lot of the time is because so many people have been um I don’t let’s see influenced to grow or civilized or put through a condition process domesticated yeah because so many of us have been domesticated in kind of harsh and shaming ways we translate that to anytime somebody gets upset as the as if they’re harsh or shaming or trying to cause pain and and so what happens is I think on a spiritual con you know construct a lot of people think that the more spiritual you are the less emotional the less that you feel the negative emotions and in reality I don’t believe that’s true I think it’s what you do with those feelings and what your intent is in using your power that determines whether you’re living from a like a spiritual perspective or you aren’t well yeah I I really want I want to address this before we go on because this is this is so critical I completely agree and I see that a lot in the ecosystem of of people who think they’re living a Heavenly lifestyle right they are in they they believe that that’s that’s what they’re approaching they’re they’re acting in that act of divinity but as we see time and time again Divinity within the human experience is entirely based off Rising above and doing the hard thing no matter what and the activity of creating a sterile spirit spiritual experience it does not do what the entire point of the spiritual experience is supposed to do which is to lower the ego and create those relationships between us and our entire planet right so I I want to comment on one of the phras you just use Rising above when I think of truly fulfilled successful people sometimes they’re the ones that don’t look like they’re Rising above and the example that came to my mind is Mother she didn’t look like she was living the the good life in some people’s book right yeah she went all the way down to the level of the dying the ill the poor the crippled and I’m not saying we’re all called to do that but I think real spirituality is finding our way of connecting and I completely agreeing that doesn’t have a feeling of I’m rising above because for a lot of people spiritually RIS ing above kind of feels like I cannot be immersed in oh it’s because the term has been beat to death within how casually using it colloquially and so it’s like I I completely agree that we need a uh a redefinition of what that looks like um because I would say rising above rising to our more divine nature is actually to be more integrated into humanity and ser right it is Mother Teresa getting into the trenches is rising above but because the easy thing to do is to sterilize our entire experience and shift away from like those real moments that then creates this fictitional spirituality where it’s like oh I don’t need to get my hands dirty because I’m spiritual and that’s completely the opposite it’s because you are spiritual that there is no dirt on your hands it is you get in there and because you were acting for the good there like there the perspective of what’s dirty and what’s not completely disappears it’s the entire point is the service yeah and what’s so interesting about what you just said is that it makes me think of any really negative addiction is a way of avoiding our own pain and some people do it through drugs and alcohol and food and other people do it through spiritualizing and what they call uh spiritual bypassing and I know I myself struggle with that I didn’t think a lot about our podcast but the little bit that I did this morning um I was thinking about I I love human systems so I know my own anagram if you’ve ever heard of that model and so I’m a one on the anagram which means that I am a reformer I see things that could be at their best and I’m like driven to help them be at that best and yet so many people that were given support to be at their best like I said before they’re was done to them in a very frightening um and and so I think what happens is when people who are spiritual are faced with a high level of conflict or Shadow or like right now our politics and everything is so uh dark light you know comined that I think what it does is it triggers people’s emotional Trauma from when they weren’t I completely agree properly completely I completely it’s the entire thing um Human Experience I was I just had an amazing conversation about this the other day is that we are blending the abil this divine nature to rise above within a red definement a to get into and do all that we can do but our society is still unlearning the things that kept us alive um all these years through you know you our fear-based mindset kept us from getting murdered by saber-tooth t ERS and because we want to look at Duality as different versus all as one we’re not appreciating that the fact that this fear-based mindset is the reason we’re here today but just and and even when you talk about fear-based mindset the reason I even brought up the anagram is it’s based in our fear and woundedness like it’s from the anagram is defined by our and so my particular fear has always been that I will be evil corrupt that usually means when I’m angry right so I’ve had to work very hard to recognize that when I’m angry it does not mean that I’m evil and a lot of people are going through that like when you look at the political Arena this is a a broad generalization yeah but there’s no accident that Democrats are considered bleeding heart liberals like that’s the phrase that’s often portrayed and um and and one of the things that I’m recognizing right now in our current political climate for myself is that I can feel passionate emotions and some of those emotions can be anger and even rage and it does not mean that I’m seeking Vengeance and I think a lot of spiritual people they want to be on the side of doing something effective in the face of some of the things that are happening but they’re afraid that if they get passionate even angry that they’re going to be interpreted to be unspiritual and uh some kind of rageaholic and I don’t think those two things really necessarily go hand inand no uh no they don’t because we H we have to separate that from our understanding because the same thing happens on the opposite side the conservatives are often thought to be more spiritual and more religious from the traditional way of interpreting those words right and so that’s that’s where you know it’s we’re both looking at each other and thinking the other is the villain versus understanding we are both appreciating two sides the same coin and together we’ll be able to actually create that value that point and I would say that actors in either camp or all camps have an idea see for our company and this has been something I’ve really had to reconcile we actively work against uh dis for dismantling control models we work for replacing punishment with something other than punishment or bribery or enabling and all those things and yet it can look on on the surface to be the same thing so the example that I would give is let’s say you have a person that’s drunk driving yeah and a police officer pulls them over and decides to you know arrest them and put them into a place that is going to ensure Public Safety which is jail right so he takes that person to the car makes sure carefully that that person is safely put into the cop car there’s no um anger that is intending to hurt this person now he his adrenaline might be flowing and he might be angry but he’s not choosing to use it against the person exactly and then you have people that um they’ve been encouraged I can even think our president saying don’t be so nice to them when you put them in the cop car don’t worry about them hitting their heads and this is not about just to focus on that particular person but it’s an intent there’s an intent that a lot of uh people on the conservative religion and the spiritual religious think that when you are firm and you can even have your adrenaline going that it automatically means you’re being vindictive or vengeful really it could be either yeah well it’s entirely based on how are we viewing the scenario and how are we relating ourselves uh and what’s happening around us to our personal identity and so it’s it’s that’s where it’s just like I have so much empathy for it because I understand where both sides are trying to come from and you know when they say don’t be too nice it’s like it breaks my heart because I know that the the next era for Humanity is going to be one of empathy kindness and unity right and so and and it’s also going to be one in which firmness and high expectation are present with love kindness and support and that’s what people feel like it’s hard to you know I even struggle with that I even think oh my gosh if I’m being passionate about something going on with politics right now and I’m expressing a perspective of protecting the public or the Constitution or whatever I even worry sometimes am I crossing over into Vengeance but all I have to do is look to realize I’m not you know unless I am then of course I I pull myself out of that it’s

uh it’s the and I think what it is is that right now because we are in a reactionary point in our society is that fear-based structure internally H and causing us to see the other side is preventing us from getting intimate with the why and the how and the what like all of it with with the other side and so it’s just it’s so much especially for for people like me where I’m a philosopher I think the entire move around politics is is really dangerous because it it focuses on control schemes like you’re talking about instead of what are the core principles and core needs that we need to address and let’s do it in the most practical efficient matter that balances the equation in the math with the human value of this person’s heart and the emot I would agree with that that across the board whether you’re talking about religion politics yeah Civic you know uh policy it’s it’s right now it’s still always going to lean into the side of domination control win lose and uh things like um no pain no gain can I tell you why I think that exists Judy I really think this is exists is because when we’re reactionary we can’t think

longterm no I would agree I think that’s why whenever we do anything we need to recognize am I in self-awareness and self-management or am I in complete like out of control yeah well I think that when we are focusing on these friction points and not the whole picture right and not getting intimate with what the why and the reasoning on the other person’s side and what’s valuable to them I think it uh it’s U I’m losing my train of thought what

um oh I’m so sorry Judy that’s all right where was I just going with this well I think what you were really saying is that the reason politics is so contentious and even discussions on religion have always been that’s right is because we approach it from an aggressive I would call it a patriarchal spirituality where it’s too much emphasis on force and domination not enough on collaboration and love that’s where I would redefine that that’s what a contradicting perspective would be of a negative experience with a more patriarchal right spirituality because as someone who studied more of these patriarch Aral because it’s really hard to even religions that don’t fall into that category because you can even say Hinduism and Buddhism do as well and so but from what I’ve seen is that masculinity operating at its best is not aggressive it’s fast and and it is always balanced with the feminine whether it’s in a male body or a female body you know I had I have an example that I think could sort of eliminate what you’re talking about um I was I I when I’m on social media I try to focus on what would I do right now that lives into my purpose and and so yesterday somebody wrote something and this is going to you know declare my own position but they wrote something like I don’t think there’s anything wrong that I love president Trump and he did X Y and Z and she named his good things you know everybody was attacking her and I wrote to her and I said first of all it’s never wrong that you’re loving anyone and I applaud you for defending that and um I know that if you and I were to talk about where we’re coming from on the on this person we both have very different perspectives and I just want to remind both of us that we are more important as human beings than whatever belief systems we operate from and I would even say Judy that if you had that talk and talked about what was important from both of your sets of needs and focuses you would actually find a lot more in common and that the manifestation of those Bel it’s just I would agree and I don’t even think I can uh find a way to build a bridge with somebody until I acknowledge you are more important than anybody’s belief systems and so am I you know and so what I’m doing is I’m trying to practice that so that I’m saying I’m disturbed by the perceptions I’m having but I also know you must be too yeah and and more than anything I just want to say that um you deserve to be loved yourself regardless of your belief system and so do I so let’s hope that together we can find some truths that we can agree on someday and it wasn’t really that I was going to develop that with her because I don’t even know the person that was on there but I want to keep sending that signal that uh we can bring a balanced male female response to all of it without denying our perspective without denying the fears or concerns well and that’s to look at we have masculine and feminine energy in all of us like this is not a one-sided game it is rather the beauty of the universe is that it all balances out into create a thing that is good right and because we’re not looking at that in the bigger picture we want to nitpick the difference of energy in the moments without looking that because these things are here in front of us it is good and where we are moving is good and what we are feeling is good especially when we are guiding it with intent and and sometimes we think we are and we find out we’re not because we but a lot of times I think when you’ve really committed to that and that’s what I’m coming to and that’s why I brought that back to my own fears of anger being always wrong and I’m really learning right now being angry is not always unloving or un um even when I’m an like for example when my kids would run out into the street believe me I wasn’t saying stop in a very nice easygoing voice right yeah yeah that child probably thought I was going to kill him for a second you know but that’s what Mother Bear love looks like right it’s protective it’s it’s immediate it’s Fierce it’s ferocious in a way and it doesn’t it if if it’s not designed to hurt other people it is it is felt in its Essence and so I’m learning how with all of this turmoil and how it triggers things in myself I’m learning it’s still okay to Express from these darker feelings as long as you are clear about your intent and what you’re causing intent because intent is what uh drives the rest of the energy and that’s how human beings are are actually communicate because if 90% of our communication is nonverbal that means it’s entirely about everything else right and so whether that energy has Consolidated into physical body language and my tone or what have you right it’s all just different ways of looking at one energy communication line and because if you were leading with intention versus reaction all of that communication will be received upon right an initial even if it’s explosive and follow up relational steps because that is how you show you care and train taking this into the business world it’s when you get angry right outside of intention right it’s less about what they did and they’re internalizing it as you are mad at their identity right that you’re in reaction to something that you’re being triggered by you know um but but I think the the thing that I’m coming into is that even when I recognize I’m being triggered it does not mean that I can’t funnel it into being loving even though it might it doesn’t look sugar and spice all the time and that’s what I’m really recognizing that there is love that can be very direct very decisive very firm I mean even when I think of somebody like Martin Luther King you know he didn’t come across soft he came across very from a Buckingham jail and it’s entirely based off of if there is a law that is unjust it’s our responsibility to civil you know protest it it’s it’s I was watching I was watching a really interesting documentary the other day called you’re not my negro and it was uh Baldwin who studied uh Malcolm X and Martin Luther King and various you know people that were in the Civil Rights and he made a statement that at some point Malcolm Al Malcolm X kind of came into alignment with Martin Luther King because I think what he felt was not occurring was the passion was the conviction was the anger and and I think I’m not certain because I don’t know for sure what that person meant but I believe that anybody that is in the path of choosing to improve the world and isn’t completely embittered by trauma and discouragement will eventually bring that passion to the table in whatever way they they do it and I think that that showed that Malcolm X and Martin Luther King were not all that different from one another no it was just manting change differently I mean in the beginning Malcolm X was about vengeance and we ought to get ours you know but he he switched that over time to I can be passionate and angry and yeah I think it’s it’s growth right and so it’s just then looking at intensity does not equal negativity right and then it’s retraining ourselves that in moments of intensity to still be present and that intensity can be within the most spiritual people we’ve ever met it it can be it doesn’t mean that everyone expresses that way but there well as a as a Christ follower you know you have me like I completely believe in righteous anger but it’s we have to completely redefine what healthy anger relationships look like yes because we have so much like you said before negative association wrapped up in it that it completely prevents it from being a healthy tool in any given situation well and also I think that sometimes like for me I teach redirecting negative behavior and I believe in creating this world where people love their lives and all the conditions for that right but I remember one time I was teaching a group of people about redirecting negative behavior and somebody said you’re in one of the mistake and goals yourself and as soon as she said it I realized she was right oh and I had I had the I had the maturity to go oh I must be more discouraged today than I realized so what I did was I said you’re Absol I think you’re absolutely right so how would you redirect me right now like instead of wasting that moment going into shame and embarrassment I owned it and and I remember one time another uh person working in my company came up to me and she said are you are you upset with me are you worried that I’m not doing a good job and you know she was I could tell she was very thrown off and I stopped and I said okay if you’re feeling judged and you’re feeling less I must be in the goal of significance which is a mistaken pattern of misbehavior that typically when we’re in it we’re not conscious that we’re in it and I said huh and I’m saying all this in front of her huh I wonder where I don’t feel okay about myself because I understand that dynamic enough to self-examine it and I said you know what I went to a meeting this morning and I saw all these people that were doing all these things that I’m not doing and then I looked and saw how much money I owe you and I was like holy [ __ ] can I even do this I shouldn’t have probably cussed but um you know will I be up to paying all of this work for her and so that’s where I went into the goal of significance I’m saying this to her and she literally started crying and said thank you for saying that because it’s not that I’m perfect in my we can be and make mistakes people aren’t used to it it’s complet they’re not used to it and because of the nature of transmutation of you doing that work in that moment that energy is then every present area that you are right then and it can be felt and totally the amazing part this is why Christ never went out to try to convert people it’s entirely about being right and when you be in the most intense full way changes the world around you where he also he also had such a compassion and acceptance of people that didn’t didn’t have self-awareness weren’t necessarily self-managing or managing relationships whether they were tax collectors and prostitutes or whether they were his own disciples that got freaked out and this brings up a a a fantastic conversation of like then why is the rest of the world working this way if the people in which which we put on pedestals right acted right and it’s entirely based off of like we can intellectually understand something but building it within ourselves is a completely different process and that’s why we have to be so intentional about this process yes and we have to be circumspect in many ways and I think that’s what kind of brought this whole conversation up when I talked about Jeff Brown who’s a a modern day yeah philosopher slsp spiritual person he is one of the best for integrating um the traumatic experiences that have happened to us so that we honor them but don’t operate only from that or mostly from that but that we don’t ignore and take opportunities to heal that I mean I know you and I are talking about Christianity but uh first came the acceptance and the compassion and then people’s hearts were changed it wasn’t the other way around oh you can come and have dinner with me once you’re perfect enough right and that’s but here’s the thing that is what people are doing in politics that’s what people are doing in religion that’s what people are doing in business right now and that’s and that’s the fun part of this is that we we can’t we have the order reversed because we’re too focused on the results in such a shorttime mindset that everything is like oh my gosh because my identity is wrapped up in having that now as I want it we can’t even appreciate remotely what these relationships could look like when we let them do their best and for me the relationship that I’m most most aware of right now is the one I have with my own anger passion um you know because I’m bringing into balance the male female there’s the part of me that’s always been so committed to collaboration and putting down win lose but I also want to own the part of myself that is passionately at times angry and upset and firm and clear which is the more um decisive results oriented masculine energy and I still struggle with that because we have these pictures of what’s spirituality is supposed to look like you know I almost wish there were more examples of Jesus than just him throwing things around in the temple you know because I’m sure that he had a full range of emotions and and there are right it’s just you have to be in the ecosystem enough to right get into it and it’s hard because the community doesn’t want to have the the the reason why like this is a better way to say the reason why the community doesn’t want to talk about those things and put them on the main conversation points is because they don’t they’re are insecure about its mirror and seeing the change they need to do in order to view even what they’re talking about the right way let alone right so that’s why because it’s not talked about you can see there’s actually this gaping insecurity around this topic right well and I think there is like when I work with companies they will often bring in a great idea and and layer it on top of wil those control systems and then they think well that was a stupid uh tool that I brought in because clearly it didn’t work well what they don’t realize is we’re so used to functioning out of a fear-based uh threatening um domination kind of mindset that we can’t hardly imagine bringing in a tool and not putting it on that Foundation well right it’s it’s our internal operating system right until you go back and change the code yourself everything you do is going to touch that yeah and and I think for me I’ve done so much changing the code but all of a sudden I’m being called to change it bigger bad deeper I think this is this is the nature of an experience with the Divine because the Divine is infinite and we are finite and so it’s like the entire process this is what the Greeks talked about udia right it’s this constant pursuit of human flourishing the job is never done and that’s why it’s a beautiful journey I think that’s that is so brilliant that you just said that because there is is a part of me and I know it’s part of a lot of people that want to get to this Allelujah point where we don’t have to go through any growing things yeah this is why I love what Buddha talks about so much that it’s entirely about reverse engineering being and when we speak when we act you know what are those driving foundational pieces right and how do we then pull ourselves out of that and really attune our focuses in the being Divine based on that being made in that image and having the ability to change the the people in front of us by just showing love you know and I think it is can’t focus on the equation I agree I think there’s a tendency in our Humanity to want to get to a solution too fast um one of the things that I love in the work we do is by M Scott pek who wrote The Road Less Traveled yeah he said the way to get to authentic community there’s a a space to pass through where you’ve you’ve stopped being fake which is pseudo community and you’ve stopped doing Chaos which is I’m right you’re wrong which we see a ton of and you go to a state called empty where I am choosing to be receptive disclosing but not telling you what I’m going through to change you or fix you and recognizing how beautifully different separate and gifted we both are and really having respect that the other person is as worthy as they are and and there’s no Solutions happening in that space exactly there’s the uh the connection of sincere empowering love happening in that space even if it looks uh emotionally childish or passionately reactive or it can look like so many things but if there’s no judgment no no desire to fix anything people will grow past that momentary experience into becoming more solidified more whole and then the decisions that are made are so incredibly fast after that yeah I I think it’s Transcendence I think it’s it’s truly moving beyond uh you know the ego right and once you have that moment of reducing how you identify with the world to a point of just like you are comfortable in you and the the externals it doesn’t it doesn’t change that internal value system I think it completely changes how how we can approach and make those relationships yeah it’s so funny because I have a little bit different perspective about the word ego I think ego when it’s used to dominate and control or for you know selfish purposes is a really negative that’s what I think most people mean when they say ego but it takes a very strong ego to go into EMP with someone I mean I knew that when I went into that conversation I think it takes a very small ego to go into ego with someone to empty and it’s just it’s just uh what is it semantics I remember reading a book that the the man who wrote it said Jesus had to have a very big uh healthy ego to say I’ll go up on the cross and show you that life never really ends yeah I wouldn’t call from my understanding from uh spirituality it ego that I would say that’s the higher self right that’s the observing self and that within the relationship is then creating the pathway for ego to then exist within a healthy structure but I as soon as I hear big ego right I look at the size of ego corresponds to Identity outside self and so that’s where I would say it’s like well if if I were to use that definition I would completely agree with that yeah so regardless of what we call it I think there is a point at which we can be with each other and with ourselves With No Agenda because that’s really what empty is let go of the agenda the prejudices the fears the ideas that if I crumble into a mess right now that means I’m a basket case instead of I’m just a human being desire it’s all the things that we come up to the table and feel like we are not good enough because we have not reached yet yes and think once we are with ourselves and one another that way we can be so much better for the world for the solutions that will come after yeah but can’t skip that step you know but now you’ve created a nurturing relationship where that flourishing can happen now right because we’re no longer attacking each other with toxic right interactions it’s now we just want the best for each other and Rob that’s how I feel about you and I know this is going to sound all mushy and everything but this whole period of politics right now has really caused me to have this huge gamut of emotional experiences and awarenesses and times where I feel like I’m kind of stuck in this place where I can’t I don’t even want to try to fix convert or heal myself because I know that there’s some purpose for it but I also know it’s not everybody that can be with that yeah and I feel like you always ask me or frequently ask me how are you doing with everything and for what reason I just tell you I don’t pretend so that says a lot about you creating safety and me creating safety um but I I think it’s something I wish everyone would learn to do because it is one of the biggest answers I think to getting to a point of real rebuilding of our world it’s so many people ask how you doing as like a check the box when it’s an opportunity for two souls to talk to each other and it’s we miss out on that and sometimes when you do start talking to each other you know there’s the fear that I’m going to be attacked but when it doesn’t it doesn’t occur it’s amazing I remember uh there was a guy that was on one of our client sites because our client sites really create a ton of safety and trust pretty quickly but despite that when I would sit on on his mentoring sessions a couple of times he would literally get tears in his eyes and he would say I’m still struggling trusting this because I would every time in my other job if I were this vulnerable it would be used against me like crazy and so yeah I mean he I think and I just said take whatever time you have to relax into it because it’s understandable if you wouldn’t want to immediately oh my gosh that’s oh you’re you’re moving me that’s um that that’s the whole game you know the the just the opportunity to catch a catch a glimpse of that of him wrestling with that inner right but it’s that’s to to be aware of that is to see someone else path to Transcendence to Enlightenment to growth and healthy relationships with self and everyone around them and it’s just part of that process is is pulling out that muck we have inside of ourselves and putting it on the table and it not judging it and being like I I understand why this is here but it doesn’t serve me anymore and that’s why I mean I think we teach a lot of that in our work which I consider to be spiritual and with Buddhism and Christianity a lot of faith but um but I think what I’m learning is sometimes that muck is a little bigger um because of like a whole series like right now our world feels like it’s being put through something where anything that was traumatizing is being called to the surface you know like all at the same time I I I really just think that’s the result of attention right and when you have more attention you have more awareness and when you have more awareness right before you’ve gone through so much cleansing and foundational building increased awareness leads to a let’s just say as Christ says brother against brother son against father mother against Sun like the whole thing is because we’re we’re having to approach that in ourselves and that in our relationships and that in our world I I think that in a way in a way all of these circumstances occurring at the same time are purposeful for us to yeah make new choices you know I know I’m feeling that personally even in the work I’m doing and sometimes I can feel a little ungrounded like oh my God am I even capable of helping anyone else in certain moments but then to realize we’re more resilient than we know and and each experience I have hopefully is going to give me more patience more understanding more compassion and more willingness to go to that empty place as long as it takes yeah and and then to find out most of the time it doesn’t take that long you know if we’re in the presence of people who do not try to fix convert heal or change us I don’t think we stay stuck in that very long no so I know when we first started talking my my reaction has been to some of the people in my life that are very quote unquote spiritual but it feels like they’re very dissociated and I think I just need to know that that’s okay that that’s happening but it may not be the most helpful to me at this point well it just changes how we approach that person because they’re in a different place right right that result is a consequence of the insecurity leading to the avoidance of integration with everyone else right yeah I always I always think of it as coping mechanism sometimes people are more triggered than they’re aware of and they’re doing coping mechanisms and maybe not even knowing they are I know I’ve been in that yeah oh my God it’s but that’s why the the reflective process is so amazing is because we then take the moment to find ourselves oh crap I realize I I missed my exit five miles ago you know that’s that’s okay because it’s it’s the entire point of like you finally looked in the rearview mirror and you saw oh there’s police sirens up behind me I guess I should pull over they didn’t have to get the helicopters out I’m okay right yeah and to learn to enjoy the ride even when you do that stuff that’s the TR that takes some inner peace right but it’s what that’s what it takes it’s because it’s not it’s not going to hurt us it’s only going to better us on our path yes and and expand our bandwidth of being with other people I think that is really a big part of it I at times when I’m in my own stuff I think okay I hope there’s some good reason this is happening but I actually know that nothing happens without it being you know so um what else anything else we could I mean Judy I think this is this has been so phenomenal I uh I think I think because I also see that Don’s waiting in the the room behind us so we should probably engage with him but this has just been so wonderful to actually connect with each other and show it’s like this is no matter if you’re businesses to consumer or business to business it’s always going to be person to person and because that’s the case it’s these conversations need to be our second nature our first n you know it’s just to be able to engage with each other at this level um for to to then receive the next series of gifts but this itself to have the friction to push us into having these relationships this is a gift it really is yeah all right well we’ll just keep on doing that and help other well thank you so much for joining today and uh this will be my mark to to cut the video and then we’ll we’ll jump into one uh don here so okay


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