LifeWorks Today Podcast → 01 Spitting In The Soup

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Episode Title:  Spitting in the Soup

Overview:  This topic is designed to challenge basic norms we’ve held sacrosanct for centuries. These include four control models described in this episode as a widely promoted means to cultivate good citizenship in homes, schools, churches, and workplaces; really everywhere.  This episode helps listeners to recognize these as the impediments they are and that they need to be dismantled and replaced with a new model.

Questions to Ponder:

  1. Why do we have high addiction, suicide, obesity, violence, depression, anxiety, and disengagement in every setting? What are we missing?
  2. Why don’t the old systems work anymore? Did they ever really without serious negative side-effects?
  3. What do we replace the old systems with?
  4. Why is this so difficult for people to do?

Episode Guest:  Terri Williams

Terri Williams is the former Mayor of Webster Groves who subsequently served as Executive Director of the Webster Groves/Shrewsbury Area Chamber of Commerce. She also worked for two St. Louis County Executives and sat on many boards and commissions over the years. Terri credits emotional intelligence skills and enhanced leadership tools became an integral part of her modus operandi because of the work of LifeWork Systems and Judy Ryan. Terri is and continues to function as a specialized part-time instructor especially with LifeWork Systems government clients. She is a champion for Judy and LifeWork Systems and credits much of her wisdom, knowledge, and experience to the influence and tutelage of Judy and her systems work.

Keywords:  Inferiority Complex, 4 Core Needs, Social Interest, Psychological Contracts, Role of Purpose, Emotional Intelligence

Episode Topics

Story of the 8th Grader: This story is a tale that demonstrates:

  • Intention: The importance of asking what a person wants (the student wanted peace with the school and teacher)
  • Task ownership
  • Transfer of responsibility to someone for their part- they own their tasks
  • Shifting victim-mindset to empowered
  • Fear is attack
  • When one gets responsible, others get more so too
  • Tools (even good ones) without the right context is harmful
  • How to see challenges as a new, constructive opportunity

Inferiority Complex: We feel unworthy or shame and go into uninterrupted struggles within ourselves and with others.

Emotional Intelligence: What it is and why it matters. Judy shares the 4 EI skills (self-awareness, self-management, social awareness and relationship management).

What Soup We are Spitting in: What are the conditions that need to be in place to become successfully emotionally intelligent.

Introduction to the 4 Control Models, differences between being a boss vs. leader. Power within instead of power-over and power-under. What are the limiting beliefs for each of them. Management by intimidation.

  • Autocratic
  • Rewards (old man story)
  • Judgment
  • Pampering and Spoiling

Mind shift is Crucial: Without a different model, even great tools can be harmful.

Responsibility-Based Model: Power has been distorted and people become afraid of their power and the conversation. When you are going into the right direction, people will often resist.

There is no good-old-day. That is a misnomer. There was always win/lose and power/over – power/under

Change Process: Name the 4 stages. The importance of compassion and curiosity when hitting conscious incompetence. What system if it were put in place would fix or eliminate this problem

Convergence with Trends


There are 91 articles alone in the article category Extraordinary Culture. We also have a growing number of articles in industry articles (not our own) that show what is happening in the evolution of needed culture conditions in every setting. Dismantling Bullying Systems is the article referencing a 2006 story about the 8th-grade boy featured in the story within this podcast. Another fitting article for this topic is Task Ownership.

Interview Transcript

[Music] Welcome To Life Works today this podcast is provided so that together we can create a world in which all people love their lives our current human systems aren’t working the way of superior versus inferior or management versus employee or adult versus child we need a powerful positive and sustainable transformation this podcast is for you who seek to be happy fulfilled and peaceful so that your Abundant Life Works today hi I’m Judy Ryan I’m the CEO of Life work systems I’m also a mother I’m also uh an applied Behavioral Science specialist I have a company that focuses on Performance Management and culture transformation in all kinds of settings I wanted to do this podcast because I see a lot of people unnecessarily suffering and I know solutions that would help them and they don’t aren’t aware of those Solutions so I even felt real excited about calling this life works today because people want things that will help their life work whether it’s at home or at work or in their communities and churches and so I’m really looking for the people who are here to learn how to relax and how to be successful in all kinds of areas of their life I see people suffering so unnecessarily and part of it is that they don’t even know what’s causing their suffering and they don’t know a way out of that suffering and the ways that I see it show up are people being uh depressed and anxious and stressed out and feeling like uh they’re all alone and isolated and often they’re uh struggling with not only themselves but they’re struggling with other people and the way that shows up is a lot of arguing a lot of righteousness a lot of avoidance and so when I see all of that I think wow if I could just bring them some of the things that I’ve learned and have experienced working with so many other people for about the last 30 years since the mid 80s I want to bring that to them so that they can find the same relief that I’ve found and have helped others to find I’m really going to be teaching people to know that they make sense a lot of times people are walking around wondering if they’re the only one that doesn’t know what to do that they’re the only one that doesn’t feel like they’re being successful and and I want them to recognize that they do make sense and that’s why I’m bringing something called individual psychology to this podcast because it helps people to understand why why did I make this decision why what is causing me to think and act a certain way and how do I have an opportunity to interrupt what I’m doing individual psychology is the kind of psychology where you understand what sort of conditions and conversations people need to feel really good about themselves because if they don’t feel good about themselves they go into this spiral where they feel ashamed of themselves and they feel inferior and they feel worthless and when they do that’s what sets off this whole set of uninterrupted struggles that go on so individual psychology gives people a completely different way of understanding their power how they formulate their values and belief systems how to be able to have some responsibility for how they guide their power it’s it’s amazing what individual psychology can do and yet it has been recognized by authors and writers in the past couple of years that individual psychology has has finally come into its own because it’s going to disrupt the power structures that we have in place right now so here’s an example what I see is even when you think about our culture as a whole when a child becomes 2 years old the common phrase is uh it’s a terrible to my child has now hit terrible toos we got to make sure he knows who’s boss and oh that’s a terrible disaster the reality is when a child is two they’re really starting to understand that they have power and that they’re autonomous and we should be celebrating that and guiding that with joy and honor and we don’t and so over the years people start to mistrust their power and so I’ll give you an example of what should be happening when we guide a child or an employee or a church member or a neighbor we want to help them to learn that they have the capability to pick up responsibility for certain tasks that maybe weren’t handed to them properly or that they were given proper support for so I’ll tell you a story that I really love that illustrates this so here’s an example that I think kind of shows the best of individual psychology because it Folds some of the major parts of individual psychology so I’m going to tell you the story and then I’ll kind of dissect how it fits with this particular model so once I was attending an eighth grade classroom who were using an individual psychology approach and the teacher was the only one in her school that was helping the children to learn emotional and social intelligence skills and one of the ways she did this is she would have classroom meetings and the kids were bringing things to the table they were helping the brainstorm Solutions together all of that sort of thing and she asked me to sit in on this meeting because she wanted to make sure she was doing the support of the students properly so into the classroom meeting Comes This eighth grade boy and he says I’ve got a an agenda item to put on our classroom meeting agenda and so he went ahead and put it on there and when it was his turn his concern was that he said he was being bullied by another teacher that was not doing this program and and the story he told us is that there was a new pledge that the school was introducing called a peace pledge and that pledge was so that the kids would all and the adults would all put their hands on their heart like Pledge of Allegiance but they would say I pledge to use my words and my actions for peace and the reason this kid was upset with the teacher is his Home Room teacher pointed at them real harshly and said if you don’t do this uh this pledge you’re going to be put in detention and he said that’s just not right that’s bullying now the reality of it is I agree with him but that wasn’t the lesson that was to be taught that day so I asked him so the teacher said would you feeli this I’m not quite sure what to do with this and I said okay so I asked him I said do you want peace in the school and he said well yeah and I said do you want peace with that teacher and he said well yeah and I said then I can help you because that’s my mission is to create a world where people love their lives and so if it’s heading in the direction of peace I’m right I’m right there with you and I said are you willing to look at where you’re doing war and he said me I’m not the one bullying somebody not doing war and I said are you willing to look and he said I guess and I said Do you ever say bad things about this teacher behind her back well yeah we hate her I said did you ever think maybe gossip and hate had something to do with war and he’s like I guess and at least you know he was very willing to be coached and I said do you ever go to her and try to work these problems out with her and he said no we’re scared of her and I said did you know that fear of another person is attack and he goes what do you mean and I said if a dog comes running up to you very hostile and it’s barking and it’s bearing its teeth and it’s got its tail down and it’s really angry what are you taught to do are you taught to remain still and calm your body are you taught to run and and get more frightened and he goes well I’m taught to stand still and calm my body why if you if you get scared what’s that dog going to do is it going to get more hostile or less hostile and he said well it gets more hostile and I said that’s true why does he do that and he said I don’t know and I said because when you’re in fear to something you’re an attack and he said what do you mean how am I in attack and I said the dog gets more hostile because he knows you’re holding him in the Monster Box you’re holding him as the bad guy as if you’re going to attack him and that’s how it’s felt when you’re afraid of somebody and he said well I didn’t know I was an attack and I said of course you didn’t because nobody’s taught you that I said now that you know that would you be willing to overcome that fear to cause the peace that you say you want with her and he said yeah I’d like to go to her now but I have no idea how to do it it and I said well aren’t you glad that you have 20 classmates and a teacher and a consultant here all willing to help you to work this out so what happened was all the other students starting get started getting into the spirit of it like um kids said I’ll go with you because I’ve been doing war and I didn’t know I was doing war and I wanted to fix things too and so it it created so much personal responsibility for those students and it was life-changing even for that teacher because after that she said as much as I love teaching the students and I’m good at it I want to teach teachers how to teach this because that’s really going to help them as much or more than anything else we’re tasked with teaching them there’s several points that have to do with individual or adarian psychology and one is that it’s about transferring responsibility to the person even if they’re an eighth grader even if they’re a three-year-old that you can hand them something and they can pick up responsibility for managing relationships managing where they’re stuck in their productivity their engagement or their own life plan and that’s what I did I helped that that young eighth grader to pick up responsibility even though he was being bullied by an adult he was the one the bigger person in this instance that had more emotional intelligence because he sought it out and he was willing to be coached in it and also what I think what’s really important about this story also is that we try to bring tools to people like a peace pledge but we use them like a hammer instead of using them in a context that’s actually a healthy context to begin with so that’s a caution that I use with people they’re very eager well when are you going to teach us some tools well the fact of the matter is if we teach tools over some of the old systems it won’t be helpful so one of the reasons I tell this I even tell this story when I’m sitting in front of Executives in a corporation or an association because it’s the same behavior that they want from their employees it’s the same behavior that they want from the members of their church or Society or their family and they all translate to those areas and if we don’t get that will continue to do the same old systems that we’ve done so I’m here with this podcast to teach people a new way to look at picking up responsibility and how that is freedom and when they do that properly life works today and that’s really why we called it life works today in fact when this work was done in a prison down in Florida the typical number of people who are re-incarcerated which is called recidivism is between 60 and 70% Nationwide and when this approach was used the recidivism went down to 4% and we see similarly spectacular outcomes when corporations and and nonprofits and government agencies take to heart what we’re teaching and they begin to really live it and apply it that was a little background for all of you that are listening and I really put a lot of thought into this first podcast so I’m so excited that you’re there to be bringing this information to and I decided to call it spitting in the soup which does not sound very appealing and it’s not really intended to because when you picture a nice cup of what looks like really hearty healthy soup if someone were to come along and spit in it you wouldn’t want to eat that soup at least I hope you wouldn’t so what I really want you to know is that what you don’t know about what you think is good for you can and will likely hurt you and I thought it was a good place to start this series because it will give you some foundational pieces that I find are the most crucial in order to understand everything that’s coming next from me so one of the things that I want you to know is the the topic for today it it has a lot of complexity to it so we’re going to be covering some things that I’m just going to mention and we’ll go into those not only in this episode likely but also in future episodes because this is a big subject and it takes some time to really understand and begin to apply in your life so we’re going to be talking about some things like inferiority complex the four core needs what is social interest what are psychological contracts what are the roles of purpose and what is emotional intelligence we hear a lot of these terms or maybe even some of them are new to you but we don’t always know what exactly they mean and more importantly why is it relevant for your life so one of the things that we’re going to be doing pretty regularly in this podcast is inviting special guests to the table and this is since it is my first podcast I wanted to bring somebody that’s very powerful and very experienced in the world so that she can bring not only her experience of using this work in her various roles in the community but also her role on my team when she comes in she trains and consults with with our clients especially those in the government sector so I want to introduce you to Terry Williams who is the former mayor of Webster Groves who served as executive director on Webster Groves Shrewsberry Area Chamber of Commerce she worked for two St Louis County Executives see had on many boards and commissions over the years she gives our company my company life work systems and myself credit for a lot of the emotional intelligence skills and her ability to enhance her leadership tools as part of her modus operandi because of the work of Life work systems Terry and I become really good friends over the years and we continue to work together she’s often interacting with government organizations because she understands how leadership at the highest level needs to be powerful and responsible at the same time so uh Terry Williams welcome to the show hi Judy let me just say you changed my life in many many good way keep changing mind too um you know you were talking about earlier um emotional intelligence and I have to say that that was so key to my development as a leader whether it was in politics or with uh family members or with educational institutions because when you are able to and you can help flesh the South for folks so they have a better understanding of this but the idea of becoming more self-aware of becoming more socially aware being more proficient at relationship management and self-management that just makes you able to operate better in the world on several levels so if you could explain a little bit for folks about just start the basic with the basic concept of emotional intelligence becoming more self-aware yeah I think emotional intelligence was one of those terms that a lot of times at a presentation I’ll say to the the group how many of you could stand up and say what that is and most people can’t so I want to take the jargon out of it um the example that I try to give people to hold on to is an anchor for what emotional intelligence even is is the example I used of the dog if the dog comes running at you you have to be self-aware enough to not go running off or freaking out you have to be able to manage yourself you have to be aware of the dynamic between you and this other party in this case the dog that it’s going from being hostile to being friendly and you actually influence that so all of those are the very simple things that are in emotional intelligence self-awareness managing myself being aware of my Dynamic with other people whether it’s one or more and managing those relationships successfully so there’s no big um mystery about it it’s it’s the basic things that we all should know how to do but we haven’t been taught how to do and you know when people aren’t proficient and emotional intelligence you can really tell because when something happens with somebody because I’m more aware of it now I look at that person and go oh my Lord that person is so not self-aware or oh my God they have no clue what they’re doing in the social situation and if people had a better grasp of what EI was uh I think it would make their lives much easier and their interactions with folks much more deeper on a level that connects them more because the whole idea of emotional intelligence it’s not it shouldn’t be scar to people it should be something that kids are taught from an early age um it’s something that um people of all ages all background should employ in their interactions you know a lot of times people will talk about emotional intelligence or an IQ I think emotional intelligence is so much more important than IQ because someone with emotional intelligence like I referred to before has the ability to connect on a heart level with folks and that’s how you change things so just a quick example when I was running for mayor um I decided that you know the way to change things and I’m not the first one to come up with this is you literally go door to door person to person neighborhood to neighborhood and that then expands into the wider community and it’s just talking to people on a level that connects with them because part of EI is also making those folks feel comfortable and that they can open up and that also I know Judy you and I have talked about this one of of the key things to EI is vulnerability and being vulnerable and open so why don’t you talk a little bit more about that well I think that fits right back into the theme that I really wanted to open with which is what is the soup that I want to spit in because we really can’t have healthy emotional intelligence without examining the foundation upon which we’re trying to build it can I just say next time I eat soup I’m going to think twice about that but anyway go ahead please yeah it kind of ruins that image that’s how much I want people to be disdaining uh the conditions that we’ve set up that are actually the biggest problem so the reason that I I’m mentioning this with emotional intelligence is people do want to connect with heart they do want to have deep understanding with the each other but what they don’t realize is that the very systems that we’ve created and that we’ve supported for centuries are actually part of the problem that keeps people feeling inferior keeps them feeling shameful and worthless and Afraid and and prevents them from having the kind of emotional intelligence they want to have so the four core uh the four uh control models that I wanted to spit in the soup on are ways that we really without thinking we we begin to use to manipulate Behavior so when I tell you these four control models I want you to think about how prevalent they are in your life like for example we were all raised where we had autocrats in our life we had people that said do it or I’ll I’ll do it because I said so do it or else and and even that notion that we’re terrible at two and we need to be contained and controlled is what comes that is what the autocratic model is about I can’t tell you how many times I ask an audience if you see a yard sign that says be a parent not a friend and you could equally say that about a boss be a boss not a friend um people think that’s a good idea they think that’s tough love and so they’re really supporting an autocratic Model A lot of the time it doesn’t mean you’re always going to be liked when you’re in leadership but if you’re using a dominating kind of approach your belief is people can’t be trusted I have to police them I have to manage them you might even have manager and think well of course I’m supposed to manage people it’s actually a very unhelpful thing to be the person in control of other people it’s exhausting for the managers and it makes the followers or the employees or the children weaker in their own ability to manage themselves you know um just to build on that there is such a difference and you know you and I have talked about this a lot there is a huge difference between being a boss and being a leader yes because um to me the idea of being a boss is all about power over rather than power within yes and I think what’s happening in various institutions for people who get this and understand that the old ways aren’t working is that we need to shift from power over to power within and I know you also added one to that yeah power under we need to shift out of power under but when people are subjected to a lot of autocratic Behavior it’s hard for them to not go into power under and shrink and so what what is really important about these control models is to think about what are the beliefs you hold about people when you’re using them one is that it’s my job to manage your power one of them you know and just this autocratic it’s my job to judge you as being less trustworthy it’s my and what happens is you actually develop people who become at best resentfully compliant which means they do c minus work or at worst they they Rebel and resist and they say no I won’t you can’t make me because they’re so um it’s so unwelcome to them to be manipul ated in that use of power over and yet I see leaders all the time that I call them um they manage by intimidation and they almost seem proud of it and so there’s a real shift needed around that particular control model this next one is going to feel probably surprising to some of the listeners and that is the use of incentives and rewards and bonuses and all those things and really uh the whole idea of the carrot and the stick the carrot and the stick and in this case it’s the carrot you know dangling carrots in front of people whether it’s an adult or a child or chocolate or chocolate steak dinner but um it sounds like such a good thing to do like both of these things that I’m mentioning they’re so seductive to us because when we feel powerless they feel powerful it they they quote unquote work in the short run and the reason that incentives and rewards were sort of brought into the picture is that originally all the research on it suggested that it was a really useful tool but then it came to be that the uh people became aware that those tests only worked when you did them on animals that people actually have an adverse reaction to being controlled by rewards and incentives and dangling carrots and all of that so um for many people that’s a New Concept so what happens when people are offered a carrot is they start to focus on themselves what am I going to get next time am I going to be the one to win the carrot so it creates an an artificial scarcity how do I rush through this thing that I’m doing so that I win and it and you find people cutting Corners around quality and becoming very gimme gim gimme and then and then the manager start resenting those people not knowing they have actually fostered those people so uh so not only are incentives and rewards unhelpful are are you know less effective they’re actually counterproductive so there’s a little story Terry that I love to tell and it’s about this old man who lived next to this middle school and these middle school kids would come out and they would yell up at him in his in his in his chair on the porch and they’d say you stinky old man you Old Goat you old you know uh and they would just be real mean to him and so what he did right away is he leaned over the uh the the porch railing yeah he leaned over the porch railing and he said hey you guys you’re doing great if you keep it up I’ll come down and give you all a dollar and they were like what and so sure enough a few minutes later he comes out and he gives each one of them a dollar and he goes now you guys are doing awesome I’m out of dollars if you come back tomorrow and you really do it really good I’ll give you all a quarter cuz I got a little roll of quarters so sure enough they came back the next day and they whooped it up and he came right out and he’s like man you guys are great and he gave him all a quad he goes now I’m out of quarters but if you come back tomorrow I’ll give you all a penny and they said a penny forget it and they never came back again so what’s so cool about that story is it’s so true if we get somebody focused on our carrot they forget the carrot that they were going after they were enjoying heckling him and so he knew he was a smart guy to know that if I get their take responsibility for their motivation they’re going to drop theirs and so that one is uh I remember a principal we’re going to put a little clip on here of him that um he he like screamed at me down this the hall because he was like what do you mean you’re taking my rewards what else are we going to do to get par were in a school yes yes and he he he’d been in the school as a principal for over 30 years and he was so distraught because he thought what am I what do I have left you’ve taken away control you I autocratic you’ve taken away these rewards and incentives I don’t know what to do now so here’s what he had to say after he kind of came around I don’t know as much as I thought I knew I’ve been around for 31 years and um it would seem that you’ve seen everything and heard everything but there are some things that I don’t know even with all that experience this is what I mean by saying that people need to have a strong positive ego it took him some time but he eventually let go of the old way and adopted the new and it was really impressive but we’re not even done we still have two more control models uh that people use and we can use all of these simultaneously but and often people do so when again the belief of a person when you’re using rewards is that they’re lazy and selfish that of themselves they won’t be selfmotivated to do the right things and you you have this belief that it’s your job to motivate them which is the exact opposite the more you motivate them the less they motivate themselves well not only that but when as a boss and not a leader but as a boss if you’re in a position um of authority and you’re um authoritarian versus an authority figure yes which is a huge difference um you become exhausted of babysitting or bribing or finagling because if you’re taking all the responsibility for what’s happening in your department or your corporation or your small business or whatever it is or your classroom or at home as a parent you are not giving those people underneath you the ability are the chance to have a sense of ownership to become fully engaged in something um and the overall uh effort and outcome of what should be happening yeah that’s what we see we see a lot of leaders that are very lopsided we see we always say break the 2080 rule because 20% of the people are doing all the heavy lifting and often that is the leaders and it’s not good for anybody and so one of the things that I love that happens when people adopt a model that is not this is is they’ll say to me oh my gosh when I first had my first pregnancy and I was away from work and I came back it was a nightmare but after learning these skills and learning this other model I could go away and have my second baby and people came back and they and I came back and people were behaving beautifully without me there so she she could hang up her hat of police officer the and I’ve heard that over and over again where people get this but it doesn’t happen instantly and it’s difficult for people first to even let that soup sit aside and consider something different it well you know one of the best things that I like about um your work and I’ve seen a lot of different models and ways to approach culture um within the workplace or education or whatever is that life Works systems when I trained with you you know and did things I really like the fact that we would go in and work with people whether they’re the maintenance person all the way up to the CEO um because you know you know how I feel about this that in my mind an effective leader creates other leaders there’s this incredible Chinese proverb and of course I can’t remember the whole thing now I mean I can’t remember yesterday half the time but generally the quote goes uh go to the people learn from them love with them you know learn what they know and when you’re finished your work is done the people will say we have done it ourselves I think that is something that effective leaders uh should live by that’s a tenant that I’ve always lived by and um I was asked the other day um you know what do you what is your legacy what do you want your legacy to be a Legacy isn’t so important as the work you do um incorporating these amazing systems and ideas that you have to change various cultures because just think about all the people whether they were in the Civil Rights Movement the women’s movement whatever over the last centuries we don’t even know their names but they did culture change which then spread out to their communities their country and the world people who understand emotional intelligence who understand what real leadership is that you know they also have those lasting impacts and because of their example just because we don’t know their name doesn’t mean that they’re not making an impact so when we go in and and um you know work even with folks you know on whether they the maintenance grouw because we don’t know the leadership capability somebody has you know somebody might not want to assume that mantle but you know who are we to make that assumption right and and that kind of leads me to um talking about why the systems that we recommend actually meet very specific core needs in people I will get back to that but I want to I want to say first uh I don’t want to leave people hanging about these other two control models defitely also uh want to say that you know I just want to express that the reason this is called spitting in the soup is that these other systems that we’re going through right now they’re so seductive and and when I was learning how to not do them I felt like an oddball I often had people that were angry with me because I wouldn’t reward my children with a pizza party or whatever it was and so when you’re talking about the people we’re standing on the shoulders of I think of Adler as one of those abut and the reason I believe that it was written recently that he he was 100 years ahead of his time is because we need to to break down these power structures that are harmful to everyone and that’s why I give him that credit because I was able to learn that information early on and understand how to how important it was to break down these control structures only because he taught me how to appreciate what a real human being that’s given the best conditions can do with their life so real quick recap the two things that you’ve already discussed I mean the the like the terminology was the first one was the first one was the autocratic m Beed your isage them is incentives and rewards and bonuses I think of it Asing where you’re holding out something in front of people to get them to jump through your hoops and your belief about them is that they’re lazy and selfish the third one is a really tricky one because it’s sort of like verbal punishment and reward and the reason it’s so difficult to recognize and stop doing is because so many of the of us are in situations where we put on the inferiority inferiority complex where we put on feeling like we’re not okay we’re not enough we’re not powerful enough we we lack our own confidence and then we become a kind of leader that isn’t helpful so this particular control model is Judgment it’s when I make it all about you making me pleased with you or you making me displeased with you so the way this shows up is a manager saying to an employee I’m so disappointed in you it’s all about you making me happy or oh I’m so proud of you you’re making me happy today a parent would do with parent does that people do it all over the place and it’s it’s like verbal rewards and verbal um autocratic you know criticism and and threat to people and the reason that we do that is we think I’m somehow supposed to be up here and they have to earn this respect or this approval or something like that and so what happens is people start to feel as if their job is to please the person in authority and they become non-creative they become inauthentic they Brown noers yeah people Pleasers and and and sometimes they Rebel too where they say well who does that person think they are bestowing you know praise or or uh shame on me and so they’re going to go into the no I won’t you can’t make me you’re no better than me kind of position so it’s both of those it’s really a creative killer but the reason it’s so difficult is because it’s so easy to slip into it’s much less um obvious when we’re doing praising and shaming and then the fourth one is one that we added because uh the work that I do uh talks about how even as destructive as autocratic and punitive things are a more destructive thing is pampering and spoiling enabling overcompensating for people and a terrible example of this is the colleges some of the the um really high level colleges where the parents went in and got cheating for their kids exams for their the movie stars how they PID yeah the movie stars I think some of the wealthy families did this and thought oh you know if I give my child the best education I make sure that they reach the top of the class they’re going to be these model citizens what kind of message is that teaching them the reality is it teaches people to become more entitled more self-centered more thinking that the world is there to serve them not that they’re there to serve the world and so this happens all over the place that’s just a very glaring example I see it a lot in companies when people see others who are not as strong in their skills whether they’re personal skills or Prof professional skills and they start lowering the bar and they stop really doing the things that would help build them up and they start doing them for them so a lot of times when we’re working with organizations we’re taking turns helping people that aren’t necessarily leaders all the time become leaders in different instances and you can see they start to stumble and a stronger leader will often say oh I’ll help you I’ll do it for you and we’ll say no no it’s time for us to support them into becoming the kind of leader that you do so naturally and you get to learn how to a better follower of a leader that’s learning well that’s where it gets back to what I was saying that an a truly effective leader creates other leaders yes not I mean leadership can be positive or negative but you know to create lasting long-term change those in positions of authority and power you know need to make sure that they are sharing those skills those Visions in order after they’re gone that people will be able to carry on the vision and the idea CU it’s not about us so much as individuals later on it’s about those ideas and those things that are going to make the world a better place in the long term um you know you also you know when you talk about these four models after doing this this long with you and seeing it in different entities that we’ve worked with and that I’ve you know that I’ve encountered they lead doing it the old way the um what I like to term the the patriarchal way this idea of power over versus Power Within it leads to cultures that are a myriad of things whe depending on which model you’re using uncaring lazy toxic I mean how many places have we worked where the whole institution was so toxic toxic you could feel a Vibe and the negativity you just want to take a shower and you got home because people were just like so negative and horrible and you’re like my God what do these people do in their off time eat nails or something I mean they’re so unhappy yes well and and I think that’s so at the core of why I wanted to start with this because think about that teacher in that school in that story who said um you better behave a certain way or you’re going to get a detention right that’s a classic example of taking an autocratic culture model and trying to impose a loving tool on it without the um without having that sense of this is a safe environment where we want to do the right thing so you’re absolutely right it comes down to I I think think the reason I’m so hammering this in is this is the thing people want to keep going back to are these control models and I because that’s all they know that’s all they know that’s all that they’re comfortable with it’s so well supported by the community at large that you do feel odd and out of step when you start looking at some alternatives to this and it’s scary though to make it’s like but this is the way we’ve always done things yes even if the Titanic is sinking we’re going to hold on to what we know right tell the band to play a little louder yes and and I also see people that want this change but they they don’t don’t understand exactly how to get there so even the idea of dismantling this um when I first learned these control models my instructor was wise enough to say keep using them until you actually feel ready to go into the new way so you don’t want to criticize yourself because we all grab on to these but I hope that I’ve made them so disgusting and distasteful that people are going okay I get it she really has got me disillusioned in these four control models so now I’ll be more open to hearing about what is the alternative cuz it all the tools in the world that could share with this audience wouldn’t benefit them if they don’t get this part cuz they’ll keep overlaying it into this model and so again though it’s a comfort level with it so you know you do the things that you know and to make that shift and that ties in Back to the emotional intelligence you know that when you become more self-aware of your effect on others and socially aware and then you can manage those relationships better with this the fourth model let’s share that well it’s actually the the fifth thing outside of the four control models because we have the pampering and spoiling is the fourth but I will tell you something that my friend Mike tells me is that I’m learning to do a better job at helping people recognize what fear is going to come up in them because uh it’s kind of like that Maryann Williamson quote that our deepest fear is not that we’re inadequate it’s that we’re powerful beyond measure I believe because our power has been sort of um treated shamefully and treated with suspicion we get our wires crossed about using our power so when we’re asked to do it differently and not be using our power over other people it’s frightening to us we’re afraid even if we do it well it’s a little nerve-wracking and so one of the things that I’m working on is helping people to understand that that will happen or is likely to happen how it shows up you mean fear like how fear how and resistance like when we’re working in companies there comes a time where people say okay you’ve told us all these Concepts when are you going to get to any tools even these concepts are tools tools but really what they’re saying is I’m uncomfortable with this conversation and especially when we help them to start looking at their purpose for everything they’re doing that feels very frightening to people and so they actually push back and the way they push back is oh this is taking too much time oh this is stupid or this doesn’t make sense stupid or this is kind of woooo or whatever time yeah and so I just I just want you to know that if that happens in your organization or within yourself it means you’re going the right direction because it is somewhat counter cult is now coming into Vogue to bring the kind of model that is what we recommend which we call a responsibility based culture model Judy you know all this stuff that you said can be really overwhelming to folks just in general because there’s so many amazing life-changing things with all of these things that are going to run through all your podcasts so I know that um you know we need to take time with these things and break them down even more and I know that you’re going to do that right yes absolutely in fact I see that the most important thing I can do for people is educate them on what kind of systems are currently in place and which ones are coming in because they’re so needed and people are in so much more pain today that’s why I I kind of get wrinkled when people say can’t we just go back to the good old days when people knew their place because yeah because the good old days were never good the good old days there were always an inequities wind lose Dynamics going on a lot of Oppression and so even that notion that we have to go backwards to be be p is just a misnomer the good old days were good for some folks not for most of us yes that’s what I love about this model when you put the control models down you can create an an experience for everybody where win-win becomes the norm where equality is is something we’re falling all over each other to give to each other and that’s why I’m so excited so how we’re going to get there is I wanted to start with this but I want to be able to have people to tie this back to the emotional intelligence that you were talking about that we were both talking about how do you become aware of when you’re using these control models that could be the first step for a lot of people in fact there’s a change process where we first become aware that we’re unconsciously UNH I love that that was so important go over real quick just just name those because we you know as long as people know that you’ll be getting into that much more thorough later but but just quick so so the way to apply it right now is people that maybe before they heard this that uh incentives and rewards are not helpful that they’re even counterproductive they are they had been operating out of unconsciously unhelpful unconsciously incompetent so now they have the information they realize it’s not helpful to dangle carrots it’s not helpful to have the mindset that it’s your job to motivate people and yet they still see themselves do it maybe a knee-jerk they do it that’s actually an important stage to have compassion and curiosity for yourself what happens is some of us especially those of us raised Catholic where that was a mortal sin once you knew better you had to instantly be better it’s it’s just not realistic people need the experience of getting used to and and building courage to use some of the new things that they’re learning and and it’s still so new and the thing is all of these things take a a lot of time and care to learn and I’m really excited because you’re going to be breaking these things down um from the ground floor all the way I should say all the way to the ground floor and and taking people up you know um through the different um culture change ideas is through the different um emotional intelligence quotients that obviously this is your first podcast which is so exciting I get to be a part of it thank you but you know the point being is that um like I said this takes work and love and care and I’m really excited for folks listening that they’re going to get your expertise um your wisdom and knowledge on these things um because it really is going to change their life right and that’s why I’m starting with a system telling people to look at a system because what we typically do in our life when it doesn’t work is we’re looking around for who’s to blame who why is this happening and who’s to blame and a lot of times we’re either turning that blame on ourselves or we’re turning it on other people what I train people to do is to say what system if it were put in place would solve this problem so really what we’ve been talking about with the control model is the system of control so what system if it was put in place instead of the control models would work and so that’s perfect for where I want to take all of you next is to understand what that is so one of the things that I do especially when I’m doing a keynote presentation I’ll uh talk about these control models we talk about the new model and I’ll introduce responsibility based culture teal culture agile culture well one of the things I do is I direct them to our website which is Lifeworks and we have a whole set of articles that about 200 articles out of those 200 all but 14 are ones that I’ve written that have been published over the years so there’s a lot of information in those articles about all the different angles to consider this information and we also have a collection of Industry articles that are written by groups like Forbes or Inc or deoe touch and those are really amazing resources because people can go in and look at those articles and we’ve highlighted on those PDFs where our work and the work in those articles are converging and that’s just a way people could say oh my gosh not only is this work becoming more and more relevant it’s converging with many of the trends going on today so I really encourage listeners to go to the website because there’s massive amount of videos articles YouTube uh Clips um uh webinars that are 20 minutes or less there’s a lot of uh my book can be downloaded for free people can take an assessment and get a free report on it or set up a first consult with us actually I really love the idea that assessment Tool uh I mean I love all the stuff on it but the assessment tool I think is really key to giving folks an idea of where they are right now now and then where they need to go exact there so it’s if if folks want to you know plug into the website and look at all the things the assessment tool would be an important First Step yes because what people find out when they do the assessment we call it an exploration survey again it’s free and the report is free what it does is they become aware of what they’re supposed to have in place to be a healthy community and they they are often surprised by what they’re asked so maybe the first question is do we even have a culture plan in place and they might be thinking I didn’t know we were supposed to have a culture plan exactly so there’s a whole lot of things that people learn about themselves and then it gives us an insight into what’s going on in their in their cultural practices so that we can be more specific with them when we talk to them well somebody who’s worked with you for a long time I highly encourage folks to go online yes nice little plug for you Judy Ryan and take that assessment tool because that’ll really give you an idea like I said of where you are and how far you need to go but Judy’s there um for the journey well and I would say this too it’s not always that you have to go far some of the best people that we work with are people that are already have a lot of this going on but they want to continually improve and strength to build on what they have yeah because our system is designed to become self uh a company to become self-reliant in it and that’s a more advanced way of living out the culture that they want so I I I appreciate that because some people do have a far way to go but some people they’re just ready for the next thing and it’s and we can help them with that man this time has gone fast Terry I’m so glad when you’re having fun yes yes and I’m so grateful that you were my first guest on the show because we’ve done this work together you understand it as a strong powerful woman leader in the world today and um I love it how you just said people have drunk the Kool-Aid I just love that because it is true and so um one of the things I want to leave the listeners with is a cliffhanger I want them to go okay she’s told us all the things we’re not supposed to do but what’s the what’s the opposite what is the next thing and so we’re going to be starting with that on our next episode and it’s actually going to be called puppets are proactive and creative are you developing or controlling people and we’re going to get into that that ideal culture I love that because that’s going to break all this stuff down even more that we talked about for folks they really get a handle on what it is um regarding their own culture and then what they can do about it so they’re not just left hanging off that Cliff exactly and I also think that people will feel less alone if they look into some of what how this transformation is already coming about so that they realize we’re not the first to do it and we’re not the last to do it not alone and they’re not alone in it so first again I want to thank you Terry you made this first for a really really a lot easier for me and I really appreciate your energy and your and your intention for the world as well and I want to uh just guide everyone that’s listening to please go to our website start learning start growing and also uh so the website is is uh Lifeworks and and it’s lifework even though our podcast is called Lifeworks today it’s Lifeworks and systems is plural okay so we want you to be in contact with us so we really encourage you to go to our website because not only will you have contact information if you want to get in touch with me I’d love to hear from you we also want you to subscribe to our podcast so that every time there’s a new episode it comes to you and you’re aware of it and and I would really like to have a connection with you so please connect with us by coming to our website look us up on LinkedIn and Facebook and let’s get to know each other thanks again everybody for listening we’ll catch you on the next [Music] episode thank you for listening to Life Works today this podcast has been brought to you by life work system CEO and host Judy Ryan the intent of this podcast is to provide you with hope and new ideas for Greater Joy in your life and work for more information on our organization and earlier podcast episodes related articles videos and more please visit our website at Lifeworks be sure to subscribe to our podcast and mailing list we invite you to join us in creating a world in which all people love their lives and where your life works today

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